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Poster: jerryfreak Date: Jun 30, 2003 7:51am
Forum: etree Subject: can I post .ape files?

I have a bunch of 24-bit stuff I'd love to share, but I dont want to convert them to flac24. I'm getting at least 10% better compression with .ape, and its way faster. Myself and many other 24-bit traders use ape as our protocol, I think if .ape was allowed, there would be a mot of fresh material coming in...

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffJonathan Aizen Date: Jun 30, 2003 10:47am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: can I post .ape files?

Go for it

I am in the process of learning to do automated conversions (Linux gurus out there: I could use some tips) so that we can host multiple formats for each show (including, yes, mp3 - please refrain from rekindling the mp3 war - we will never stop hosting lossless audio as the archival format - this will be akin to the movies archive, where there are multiple, varying levels of quailty, formats available for download)

Please do include an MD5 file for the concert so that integrity can be maintained.

Jon

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Poster: NickSD Date: Jul 1, 2003 2:49pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: can I post .ape files?

When you eventually implement the MP3 download feature, were you planning on using the LAME MP3 encoder? If so, would you be using --alt-preset standard? I ask this because LAME with that switch provides what most consider to be the best quality MP3 you can get for a decent filesize (~192kbps average). You might already know this, though. :) If not, more info and discussions can be found at Hydrogen Audio (www.hydrogenaudio.org).

Nick

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffJonathan Aizen Date: Jul 1, 2003 3:20pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: can I post .ape files?

Nick, I could use all the advice regarding this topic as I can get. Particularly the appropriate tools to do this on Linux boxes.

This post was modified by Jonathan Aizen on 2003-07-01 22:20:53

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Poster: Chipaca Date: Jul 1, 2003 4:31pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: can I post .ape files?

I don't know about .ape, but I can certainly lend a hand with the automatic conversion between those codecs that are supported in Linux. What exactly do you need?

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffJonathan Aizen Date: Jul 2, 2003 12:12am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: can I post .ape files?

Well, I'm hoping to write a script that, given a base directory, recurses into the subdirectories, converting the SHN files or FLAC files to MP3 files. So..., given a directory structure like this:

base directory: /0/audio
sub directories:
/0/audio/xxxYYYY-MM-DD.shnf
/0/audio/xxxYYYY-MM-DD.shnf
/0/audio/xxxYYYY-MM-DD.flac16
/0/audio/xxxYYYY-MM-DD.shnf

And so on, it should go and create

/0/audio/xxxYYYY-MM-DD.mp3f
/0/audio/xxxYYYY-MM-DD.mp3f

And so on. Basically I just don't know which Linux tools to use to convert the SHNs/FLACs to MP3s. I can easily write the script, given the correct command-line (not X Windows) tool. I can even link the script to the database (using Perl DBI) to fill in ID3 tags, if that's a possibility using current Linux tools.

So, any suggestions on which tools would work like:

shn2mp3 file1.shn file1.mp3 -artist 'band' -title 'YYYY-MM-DD' -track '1' ...

Your help is much appreciated,

Jon

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Poster: Chipaca Date: Jul 2, 2003 2:24am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: can I post .ape files?

In general, all you need to do is to pipe the output of 'shorten -x' into the input of your encoder. For example, just last night I did
for i in *.shn; do
shorten -x "$i" - |
oggenc -q6 -a 'Jack Johnson' -d '2002-11-14' -N "1-${i:0:2}" -l "Live at Orpheum Theatre, Boston, MA" -t "${i:5:$((${#i}-9))}" -o "${i/%shn/ogg}" -
done
(sure, it's more complicated than you asked, but I had it in my history).
If you look at the manpages, you'll notice that most of the encoders out there (with the exception of l3enc) take a file called '-' to mean standard input or output (depending where you put it). lame does this, as do oggenc and shorten in the example above; flac behaves this way too. So all you need to do is
shorten -x $file | lame - ${file/%shn/mp3}
or
flac -d -o - $file | oggenc - -o ${file/%flac/ogg}
got it?

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffJonathan Aizen Date: Jul 2, 2003 5:01am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: can I post .ape files?

Thanks a lot! Yes, I've got it. The only question remains: which MP3 encoder should I use and where should I get it? Is LAME agreed to be the best? Is it free/open source?

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Poster: Chipaca Date: Jul 2, 2003 10:37am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: can I post .ape files?

I attach /usr/share/doc/lame/copyright.
lame is at http://lame.sf.net

lame is the best at high bitrates, which is what you want (AFAIK).

As for the options... dunno, it depends on what you're encoding. You probably want something like -V0 or maybe -V1.

Attachment: copyright

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffJonathan Aizen Date: Jul 2, 2003 3:22pm
Forum: etree Subject: mp3 conversions

great, i've gotten everything to work :)

i'll post some links to files at some point soon so that people can test them out and see if they're up to snuff.

then i'll try to figure out how to do the conversions with minimal down-time.

jon

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffJonathan Aizen Date: Jul 2, 2003 1:09pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: can I post .ape files?

You've been extremely helpful - thanks so much!

Jon

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Poster: Chipaca Date: Jul 2, 2003 9:38pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: can I post .ape files?

re-reading my post, I notice I didn't mention this: I'm not an audiophile, which means that I am probably not the best judge of what "works best". Other people in this forum know better.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffTyler Date: Jul 2, 2003 10:27am
Forum: etree Subject: LAME

to my knowledge, yes, LAME is the best one to use. As nick said, it is the best quality with the lowest file size. and yes, i believe it is open source. i have the program, but i'm unsure where i downloaded it from. i'll bet www.download.com but i vote for LAME.

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Poster: NickSD Date: Jul 6, 2003 10:48am
Forum: etree Subject: Proper MP3 encoding

Jon,

I would recommend using LAME 3.90.3. You can download/read about it at http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?showtopic=203 and the linux compile can be found at http://rarewares.hydrogenaudio.org/mp3.html

As far as what switches to use, I would suggest the following:

lame.exe --alt-preset standard infile.wav outfile.mp3

That will give you excellent quality for the bitrate (approx 192k average, but it is VBR so it will fluctuate).

Many listening tests have been performed and have shown that this switch (alt-preset standard) will pretty much always give you better quality than coming up with your own commandlines. A lot of time and effort was spent creating this preset. You shouldn't need to add any other switches (such as -V0, -V1, etc) to the commandline.

Nick

This post was modified by CousinCrispy on 2003-07-06 17:46:26

This post was modified by CousinCrispy on 2003-07-06 17:48:07

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffJonathan Aizen Date: Jul 6, 2003 11:15am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Proper MP3 encoding

Thanks for the tip Nick - in my test script I was using -h but I will switch, as per your recommendation.

BTW: I see you reference lame.exe - meaning the Windows executable - does the --alt-present standard option exist for the Linux distribution?

Jon

This post was modified by Jonathan Aizen on 2003-07-06 18:15:14

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Poster: NickSD Date: Jul 12, 2003 4:44am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Proper MP3 encoding

Yes, the Linux binary I linked to does contain support for the "--alt-preset standard" switch. Thanks for being open to this suggestion!

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffInfiniteOhms Date: Jul 3, 2003 2:41am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: can I post .ape files?

will there be an id3 tag added to mp3s?

this would be pretty sweet to have and probibly not that hard to implement, also if there are id3 tags make sure the comment says that there is a free lossless copy on archive at *url*

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Poster: weeba Date: Jul 5, 2003 12:16pm
Forum: etree Subject: shn > mp3

<< also if there are id3 tags make sure the comment says that there is a free lossless copy on archive at *url* >>

But if someone has the mp3s, then there is a chance (and probably a good one) that they won't go to *url* to download the SHN copy of the show, since they already have the show on their PC (and according to someone's post above, if they have the mp3s, they must have a slow connection speed, therefore making SHNs "impossible" to get). Then, as Scott points out, the mp3 show will continue to spread, regardless of the taper's wishes (you know, that whole NO MP3 line in the text file?). And then the trading pool will dilute, as mp3 files are now spreading, and people are downloading the mp3s from LMA, since it takes less time.

Regardless of Internet connection speeds, people always have the opportunity to B&P shows, eliminating the need for servers/LMA etc. However, since servers/LMA exist, people always want the quick fix; always want the shows ASAP. We can't lessen the quality of the show, just so it spreads 1 day faster.

And with the availabilty of high speed connections (nearly everywhere now), there is no point in seeding mp3 shows, since it can take less than 1 night to download a show.

(that is one rambling post.)

-Aaron

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Poster: Prime_66 Date: Aug 22, 2004 9:13pm
Forum: etree Subject: Need an automatic mp3-conversion script, probably using Lame

need to have a function on my website which takes high quality mp3´s and convert them into low quality mp3, made for streaming. The process should take place automatically when a new mp3-file is uploaded.

I´ve begun working with lame but I can´t get it quite right. The lame.exe works fine when I start the application manually in a command-promt window (WIN XP). But when I try to call the program from a PHP-script the mp3-conversion stops after just a few seconds:

$bitrate = 48;
exec("lame -a --mp3input --resample $bitrate hej.mp3 12.mp3");

If I write that code directly to lame in a command prompt window it works fine, the conversion completes. But as I said, when I try to do the same thing from PHP it stops before the conversion is finished.

I´ve checked the php.ini and it´s not the time for how long a a script can "act" which is too short. So what can it be?

I also need a way to close down lame.exe after the conversion is complete. Otherwise new lame.exe´s will be started each time I call the program from my PHP-script.

If anyone have any ideas I would be grateful!

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Poster: JonReckers Date: Jul 2, 2003 11:09pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: can I post .ape files?

I hope this mp3 talk is a joke. Read the main page:

Welcome to the Live Music Archive. etree.org is a community committed to providing the highest quality live concerts in a lossless, downloadable format. The Internet Archive has teamed up with etree.org to preserve and archive as many live concerts as possible for current and future generations to enjoy. All music in this Collection is from trade-friendly artists and is strictly noncommercial, both for access here and for any further distribution. Artists' commercial releases are off-limits. This collection is maintained by the etree.org community.

lossless means NO MP3's. I don't see how etree would continue an affiliation with this, and I know a great deal of the community would really be upset as well.

This post was modified by JonReckers on 2003-07-03 06:09:21

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Jul 2, 2003 11:38pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: can I *post* mp3 files? no

Lossless formats will still be permanently archived and readily available. This is an important feature. In fact, IMO all parent seeds should still be supplied to the LMA in a lossless format, not mp3, for best preservation. That will certainly be in line with the etree.org mission.

Etree.org's longstanding proscription against mp3s came in part from the fear that an original "pure" source would get lost forever in rounds of lossy trading, because all distribution had occurred "hand to hand". But now we have a major new element in the mix: There's now a library that keeps a "library copy" of the seed, and it's always available to go back to.

The whole "paradigm shift" does take some getting used to for us oldbies, eh? ;)

This post was modified by hamilton on 2003-07-03 06:38:56

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Poster: JonReckers Date: Jul 2, 2003 11:57pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: can I *post* mp3 files? no

Yes, but..... There are a number of problems with using the archive to do this:

1: The artists did NOT sign up for mass mp3 distribution of thier shows. I would imagine quite a few will pull out of the system.

2: Many tapers do not support spreading thier music in this format. Many people, myself included, will stop uploading shows, if they are going to be converted and spread highspeed.

3: The problem is trading, not having a "library copy." Having mp3s distributed so easily here WILL pollute the trading pool. For those who do not trade live music, and just download, it won't matter, but for those of us oldbies who still trade music through mail, there will be more mp3 sourced discs.

The problem is not the format itself, but the distribution....

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Jul 3, 2003 2:22am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: can I *post* mp3 files? no

The artists did NOT sign up for mass mp3 distribution of thier shows. I would imagine quite a few will pull out of the system.

We have plans to ask them, still in the works. For the ones who reply NO, or already specify NO in their policies, there would be a mech not to have MP3s available for their stuff.

This post was modified by hamilton on 2003-07-03 09:22:25

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Poster: thoman8r Date: Jul 7, 2003 6:17am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: can I *post* mp3 files? no

"We have plans to ask them, still in the works. For the ones who reply NO, or already specify NO in their policies, there would be a mech not to have MP3s available for their stuff."

Then I think there should be a mech to allow tapers/uploaders to specify whether they would agree to have their stuff distributed in a format different than (and inferior to) the one they took the time to upload in.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffbleblanc Date: Jul 3, 2003 1:25am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: can I *post* mp3 files? no

Many tapers do not support spreading thier music in this format. Many people, myself included, will stop uploading shows, if they are going to be converted and spread highspeed.

If the artists condone mp3's as another means, would you still feel that way? Obviously it doesn't change the fact that SHN/FLAC's sound better.

Once an artist has given their consent, how do you think this would effect the "Please do not encode to MP3" requests that seem popular nowadays? Would it override? Seems to me that the artist's wishes always overrides those of the tapers - that's how it has always been.

-Brad

This post was modified by bleblanc57 on 2003-07-03 08:25:58

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Poster: JonReckers Date: Jul 3, 2003 1:21am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: can I *post* mp3 files? no

Yes, I definately would feel the same way. I think that having a show or two in mp3 format is a great way to introduce new music. Few will argue that the format needs to be "banned" 100%. The problem lies in converting the entire database. It is not just the bands, but the trading communities who uses this resource, and they are the ones who have the problem with mp3 conversions.

As for taper notes of "Please do not convert to MP3". I do think that they will change, and the new change will be "Please do not convert to MP3 or upload to archive.org", and that change would not be good for any of us.

This post was modified by JonReckers on 2003-07-03 08:21:24

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffbleblanc Date: Jul 3, 2003 2:30am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: can I *post* mp3 files? no

The problem lies in converting the entire database. It is not just the bands, but the trading communities who uses this resource, and they are the ones who have the problem with mp3 conversions.

I see your point Jon, and I respect this - whenever possible the higher quality recording is preferred, and we risk losing some tapers by adding them. Mine is this:

I still think that the whole "MP3's are Evil" sentiment is overdoing it, and the community members who feel sooo strongly that they would refrain from contributing because of that religion need to step back and look at it on a higher level. As Diana points out, many of the past fears relating to MP3's are quickly disappearing.

This project has attracted a lot of attention in our community and brings a new concept to the floor - Universal Access to recordings. What does that mean? It means that if your hard drive is only 5GB, you use dial up, and you don't have a burner - another option can be available for you to enjoy (smaller files). It means that if you have a T1 at your disposal and a 24/96 sound card, the enormous 24 bit files can be here too.

Speaking only for myself - The more formats available for me to choose from, the happier I will be with this site. I love to have choices - not have them pre-made for me. Lossless is wonderful. Smaller files are too. Being able to choose which is more important to me whenever I want (cause it's not always the same answer) - perfect.

please refrain from rekindling the mp3 war.

No war, just swapping opinions. :) Sorry though.

-Brad

This post was modified by bleblanc57 on 2003-07-03 09:30:33

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Poster: scott brown Date: Jul 5, 2003 10:23am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: can I *post* mp3 files? no

how are they disappearing? if the mp3 copy is on archive.org, many will download that. then they'll make copies based on that and spread that. same reason i never liked mp3ing of shows in the first place. nothing has changed. people will continue to do the convenient thing, and for many people with slower connections, they'll just grab mp3s and spread those

>>I still think that the whole "MP3's are Evil" sentiment is overdoing it, and the community members who feel sooo strongly that they would refrain from contributing because of that religion need to step back and look at it on a higher level. As Diana points out, many of the past fears relating to MP3's are quickly disappearing. <<

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Poster: mgleason007 Date: Jul 15, 2003 6:36am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: can I *post* mp3 files? no

"This project has attracted a lot of attention in our community and brings a new concept to the floor - Universal Access to recordings. What does that mean? It means that if your hard drive is only 5GB, you use dial up, and you don't have a burner - another option can be available for you to enjoy (smaller files)."

Why can't you just trade for a perfectly good non-mp3 copy? People are just getting lazier and lazier and don't want to have to wait. The DMB community is a prime example of this... if a show isn't out the next day for download, people bitch.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffakb Date: Jul 15, 2003 11:31pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: can I *post* mp3 files? no

I'm not a trader. I browse this archive, there's lots of music by artists that I've never heard of. I've downloaded a couple shows but having to wait a whole day to get a show means I don't listen to very much music.

Making the shows available in mp3 means I could browse the archive in realtime. Realtime versus a day. Millions versus thousands. The original full quality archives are still available. Seems like an easy choice to me.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Jul 16, 2003 12:24am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: can I *post* mp3 files? no

Why can't you just trade for a perfectly good non-mp3 copy?

In the big picture of Universal Access, this library is open to millions of non-traders- as well as the thousands of traders out there.

Even my elderly relatives know what an mp3 is by now, though they would never make it to learning how to drop a blank in a bubble mailer. ;)

This post was modified by hamilton on 2003-07-16 07:24:26

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Jul 3, 2003 3:17am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: can I *post* mp3 files? no

please refrain from rekindling the mp3 war.
No war, just swapping opinions. :)

I'd like thank Jon R. for presenting the 3 most salient issues in a very clear way, thereby initiating a polite discussion rather than a war. :)

As for the 3rd issue, trading, I think as long as we community members keep trumpeting the "mp3s are for private listening, lossless is for trading" principle, we'll be OK. We've been spreading this message for several years now and it has sunk in very well to date.

One nice parallel example to compare to archive.org: gdlive.com is heavily used by Deadheads and hosts both shns and mp3s side by side. Yet we rarely see mp3 pollution problems arising in Dead circles (I recall only 1 instance in the last 3 years coming into the gd shncirc listings).

I've also watched how the "trade shn not mp3" idea has even spread to trading circles outside the usual etree.org sphere.

This post was modified by hamilton on 2003-07-03 10:17:17

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Poster: JonReckers Date: Jul 3, 2003 3:45am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: can I *post* mp3 files? no

I still don't know... I would just really worry about contributions dropping from people who don't want the recordings made into mp3 (even if an artist "OK's" it). It isn't nessecerily a "MP3s are evil" feeling, but rather a "I'm not going to spread this in MP3" feeling.

As for gdlive.com, and it's success, I don't think that there is a way to track hand-to-hand or mail trading, and whether or not mp3 sources get distributed unknowingly. The main safegaurd against that right now is that there is not widespread conversion to MP3, which is exactly what is being talked about here. In my opinion, Etree is the reason that the trading community is as "clean" as it is now. They set the standard.

Some support here has argued that this will give more people access to the music, I think that it could do the opposite. It could make more people reluctant to trade through some of the older methods, limiting lossless music exchange to those with high speed.

I think that etree and the archive are some of the greatest resources out on the net right now, and in reading these plans, I worry that it will hurt the site more than help it. If this is truly going to be done, I hope my doubts are proven wrong.

Have a happy 4th everyone....I'm out for the weekend.

This post was modified by JonReckers on 2003-07-03 10:45:23

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Jun 30, 2003 11:33am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: can I post .ape files?

we can host multiple formats for each show

Great! That should be welcome news to those Mac users I invoked in the earlier .ape thread. :)

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Poster: jerryfreak Date: Jun 30, 2003 10:58am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: can I post .ape files?

>Go for it

excellent

>I am in the process of learning to do automated >conversions (Linux gurus out there: I could use >some tips) so that we can host multiple formats >for each show (including, yes, mp3 - please >refrain from rekindling the mp3 war - we will >never stop hosting lossless audio as the >archival format - this will be akin to the >movies archive, where there are multiple, >varying levels of quailty, formats available for >download)

>Please do include an MD5 file for the concert so >that integrity can be maintained.
yes, I always do them for both .wav and .shn